[00:00:00] I have to laugh because I just started to record this episode and I flubbed up and I said I have to go back and start over again.

[00:00:11] Which is just perfect because I am sure you feel as though you are either doing something perfectly or you’ve completely fallen off the wagon.

[00:00:21] That all or nothing mindset can show up everywhere, but it can be especially powerful when we are trying to change our eating, exercise, weight management, or habits.

[00:00:32] And we start with that ambitious plan and life intervenes, and then suddenly one day is missed and it feels like, poof, we have failed.

[00:00:40] So you are gonna love, love, love my guest today.

[00:00:44] Monica Packer believes that there is much more compassionate and much more effective ways to create lasting change.

[00:00:53] Monica is the host of a long-running podcast called About Progress and is the author of a new, brand-spanking new, coming out this fall, book called Sticky Habits: A Woman’s Guide to Reclaim Happiness, Ditch Perfectionism, and Create Habits That Last.

[00:01:11] And I just cannot wait for you to hear about what Monica has to share about breaking perfectionism and really moving forward and making progress.

[00:01:24] So come on in.

[00:01:32] Did you know that our struggle with weight doesn’t start with the food on your plate or get fixed in the gym?

[00:01:38] 80% of our weight struggle is mental.

[00:01:42] That’s right.

[00:01:43] The key to unlocking long-term weight release and management begins in your mind. Hi there.

[00:01:50] I’m Rita Black.

[00:01:51] I’m a clinical hypnotherapist, weight loss expert, best-selling author, and the creator of the Shift Weight Mastery process.

[00:01:59] And not only have I helped thousands of people over the past 20 years achieve long-term weight mastery, I am also a former weight struggler, carb addict, and binge eater.

[00:02:12] And after two decades of failed diets and fad weight loss programs, I lost 40 pounds with the help of hypnosis.

[00:02:19] Not only did I release all that weight, I have kept it off for 25 years.

[00:02:25] Enter the Thin Thinking podcast where you, too, will learn how to remove the mental roadblocks that keep you struggling.

[00:02:33] I’ll give you the thin thinking tools, skills, and insights to help you develop the mindset you need, not only to achieve your ideal weight, but to stay there long term and live your best life.

[00:02:46] Sound good? Let’s get started.

[00:02:49] Can you believe it? I just flubbed up again.

[00:02:53] I was like, I’m gonna start over. Oh my goodness.

[00:02:56] Come on in to the Thin Thinking podcast you newcomers, you longtime listeners, and everyone in between.

[00:03:02] I’m glad you’re here.

[00:03:04] Glad to be back home in LA. I love going away, but I even love more coming back home.

[00:03:10] I don’t know about you, but I just love being at home.

[00:03:13] I’m a homebody. What can I say?

[00:03:16] But today, I’m going to be brief because I want to dive into Monica’s conversation with me.

[00:03:23] Monica, she just has so much to share, and I wanted to keep this episode under an hour, which may be my own little perfectionistic tendency showing up right now, other than starting over again twice to record this podcast.

[00:03:39] So there you go.

[00:03:40] So all… And this is dedicated to all of you recovering perfectionists, active perfectionists, and all or nothing thinkers in this community, and I know there are many.

[00:03:50] So this episode is for you with love.

[00:03:54] Now, let me tell you a little about Monica.

[00:03:57] Monica Packer is the host About Progress podcast.

[00:04:02] The host of the About Progress podcast.

[00:04:05] Which she has hosted for nearly a decade and grown to more than 800 episodes.

[00:04:11] A former middle school teacher, Monica is an identity and habits expert who helps women move beyond perfectionism and create meaningful, sustainable progress in their everyday lives.

[00:04:24] Drawing from her own recovery from eating disorders, burnout, and the all-or-nothing perfectionistic cycle, Monica has spent more than a decade dedicated to studying and experimenting with realistic habit formation for women.

[00:04:41] Her work recognizes the unique demands women face, including invisible labor, which is fascinating, wait till you hear about that, limited time, unpredictable schedules, and changing energy, and teaches women to build flexible habits that support them rather than control them.

[00:05:00] So let’s get started.

[00:05:04] Hello, Monica, and welcome to the Thin Thinking podcast.

[00:05:07] I’m really excited to dive into our conversation today.

[00:05:10] Oh, I am too.

[00:05:11] Thanks so much for having me.

[00:05:12] I was so excited to have you on and talk about perfectionism and habit formation, which is what we are all about here in the Thin Thinking community.

[00:05:23] But before we dive into that, I would love our listeners to know a little bit about you and your perfectionistic past and,

[00:05:31] Yes … how a mother of five un-perfectionized herself.

[00:05:37] Oh, yeah, I love that way of putting it.

[00:05:38] I lately have been kind of describing myself as a self-help dropout, you know?

[00:05:43] I think-

[00:05:43] that’s how a lot of us begin our perfectionistic journey is out of good intentions of just wanting to be better, to do better, to feel better.

[00:05:51] And we’re given these certainty-bound models, especially in the self-help and wellness industry, that are really black and white, that give you these very clear supposed outcomes and very clear supposed ways to get there.

[00:06:04] And you know, you try, you fail, you try, you fail, you try, you fail.

[00:06:07] And that in large part was a big part of my past.

[00:06:09] Right now most people know me as a podcaster at About Progress.

[00:06:13] I’ve been doing that now for almost 10 years.

[00:06:15] I was a middle school teacher before that.

[00:06:17] Personally, yeah, mom of five and mostly the half-and-half stay-at-home mom and working part-time, which is great.

[00:06:23] But if we go back to those early perfectionistic days, it really was just a little girl just wanting to be good.

[00:06:30] And I think a lot of women who are listening relate to that, of just wanting to be that person in a family that is making things run smoothly, and measuring up, and doing well at school, and making a difference in her community.

[00:06:43] For me, perfectionism began with that slipperly, s- slippery slope of good intentions.

[00:06:48] But it gradually led to a really dark place in my life.

[00:06:50] As I was approaching my 20th birthday, I was struggling with multiple eating disorders and mental health issues that relate to that.

[00:06:58] It was a very, very hard and dark time, and I went through it all on my own, mostly because of the shame I associated with my eating disorders, which included binge eating, which at the time it was a newly diagnosable eating disorder.

[00:07:13] There wasn’t much about it- Yeah … out there in the zeitgeist.

[00:07:16] Nobody really knew how to talk about it.

[00:07:18] Everyone just thought it was something else.

[00:07:20] I kind of saw it as failed anorexia, which is something I had tried to basically actively pursue for probably 10 years prior to that.

[00:07:27] But, in my pursuit of recovery I went to what I now know as the opposite end of perfectionism, which is the nothing side.

[00:07:35] A lot of the prices that I paid led to burnout, fear, staying on the sidelines until the right time, the right opportunity, the right- outcome that I could predict ahead of time, and I stayed there for another 10 years.

[00:07:48] And that’s what also led to another milestone moment for me of approaching my 30th birthday and recognizing that so much of my life was actually a perfectionist, you know, pendulum swing.

[00:07:59] Right.

[00:07:59] And I wanted to get off of it, and I wanted to live my life.

[00:08:03] And as part of that, I did wanna grow again.

[00:08:05] I did wanna change, and I wanted to go back to those good intentions, but to pursue them in a different way than I ever had.

[00:08:14] And that’s what began what has now become a 10-year experiment on what it looks like to grow outside of perfectionism, and somewhere along the way, habits came along for the ride, which was something I never would’ve expected.

[00:08:25] But I really love what I get to learn about, talk about, teach about, help women through, and now write about.

[00:08:32] Wow. Fantastic.

[00:08:33] In your journey of one, the first 20 years of your life- Mm-hmm … was the perfectionism driven by anything in particular?

[00:08:42] Like, was your families focused on achievement or what was the s- water you were swimming in that made you feel like you had to excel or be best or.

[00:08:53] So I’ve been asked this a lot over the years, and it always is a puzzle even for me.

[00:08:58] I think a lot of this came from my own just inward drive.

[00:09:04] Mm-hmm.

[00:09:04] I do feel like it’s a really natural part of who I am to want, to be better.

[00:09:12] I kinda have more of that ambitious personality, you know?

[00:09:15] I’ve been that way since I was a very small child.

[00:09:18] So that’s I think part of it, but I think the water I was swimming in was thinking that the way to be good at things was that hustle culture, all or nothing, like, success at all costs,

[00:09:31] which I think is so prevalent that I didn’t need to be directly taught in my family for me to get the message.

[00:09:38] Okay. I got it loud and clear.

[00:09:40] I did grow up in a pretty conservative community in faith and I think that was in many ways part of the perfectionistic path.

[00:09:46] But I think about my parents, they never… I mean, I was the fifth of seven kids.

[00:09:52] I think by that point they had been softened up a whole bunch.

[00:09:54] And my mom always told me, “Just do your best at school. If your best is a C or a D, that’s fine. Like, I’ll know it’s your best if you’re giving it what you can.”

[00:10:03] They never pressured me.

[00:10:04] I was the kid that wanted to sign up for everything, that wanted to get the straight As, the accolades, to be in all the extracurricular.

[00:10:11] But it was fed in large part, I think, just by being a woman.

[00:10:14] I mean, if we can call a spade a spade, I think a big part of it was just the water I was swimming in was being a woman, and knowing that in order to be seen as good, I had to achieve certain outcomes, I had to look a certain way.

[00:10:25] Okay. And to get there you had to be perfectionistic in the worst sense of the word.

[00:10:32] And then your turning point in your 20s into your 30s where you’re just like, “Eh, I’m not even gonna try,” was that-

[00:10:39] Yeah … just burnout all together?

[00:10:43] It was a lot of burnout, and it was also a lot of fear.

[00:10:46] Mm-hmm.

[00:10:47] I still believe the only way to achieve was all. Mm-hmm.

[00:10:52] And I knew the prices I paid for it.

[00:10:54] It was almost my life, truly. Mm-hmm.

[00:10:56] It’s not hyperbole. I almost lost my life to perfectionism.

[00:10:59] And I was so terrified of getting to that place again, it felt safer to stay on the sidelines because I didn’t know of another way.

[00:11:07] Yeah. You know, I truly did not know of another way.

[00:11:10] For my family, for my work for the, my responsibilities I could show up.

[00:11:13] I could do good work. But anything for myself, that’s what was on the sidelines.

[00:11:19] So how did you begin your journey in your 30s to begin to build that for yourself?

[00:11:26] Like, what was the first place you looked for yourself?

[00:11:30] Well, I, honestly was at the, the aid of an amazing therapist to start with. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:11:36] And I, I had one in my early days of recovery for a year.

[00:11:40] , It was covered by my university, so I was fortunate to be able to have free therapy then.

[00:11:44] I tried in my late I would say mid to late 20s again with a therapist.

[00:11:47] It didn’t work, but then I found one that did understand and get it a lot more.

[00:11:52] But I was still a hard case for her.

[00:11:54] I was tricky.

[00:11:54] I was with her for nearly five years.

[00:11:56] And she’s amazing and changed my life.

[00:11:58] But she was the one who pointed out I was a perfectionist.

[00:12:01] So I just had to learn how to start this.

[00:12:04] I had to learn that I was in the water.

[00:12:06] I had to see and notice like, oh, th- I’m swimming in something.

[00:12:10] I didn’t even know I was.

[00:12:11] Like, this is just, this has been so consuming of how I see myself, how I see the world, how I see progress, that I didn’t even know that this is something I can separate myself from and learn more about.

[00:12:23] Right.

[00:12:24] And was that first step, ’cause I know you work with women with identity and- Yes

[00:12:29] you know through that.

[00:12:30] Was that identity piece one of the first pieces- Central … that you put in place?

[00:12:34] Okay. Central.

[00:12:35] Talk a little bit about identity and how- Mm-hmm … if we have a lot of, like you said, probably many, many of us in this community are recovering perfectionists or still active- Yeah

[00:12:47] perfectionistic. How identity plays a role in perfectionism?

[00:12:52] Mm-hmm. And, and this is what I spent a great deal of time and years, learning a lot about and also anecdotally fixing it myself and, and trying to figure it out for myself. But yeah perfectionism is a coping mechanism for many people, especially those who have a traumatic background.

[00:13:07] I personally didn’t share in that kind of trauma background, and a lot of women don’t either.

[00:13:12] But regardless of what their background is, I believe perfectionism is more a misplacement of identity.

[00:13:19] It’s us placing our sense of self on our outcomes, on what people can see about us and our appearance and our achievements.

[00:13:26] And doing that entails us believing a whole host of lies.

[00:13:31] One, that perfection is even possible.

[00:13:33] Two, that the way to get there is the all of all or nothing.

[00:13:36] Three, that- I, who you are is what you do in a day.

[00:13:40] Four, that arrival is even possible.

[00:13:43] Five, an overnight success.

[00:13:44] I mean, we could go on and on.

[00:13:45] We’re believing a whole host of lies, but at their root is the biggest lie of all, and it’s that who, what we do is who we are.

[00:13:54] And I really had to learn to separate that sense of self from my outcomes in order to learn a new way to make progress, which actually is a whole lot of doing- Yeah … but from a different place and in a different way.

[00:14:08] It’s knowing who you are regardless of how things turn out, and holding onto that.

[00:14:13] It’s knowing there is no arrival, and the beauty of that actually means there is no limit.

[00:14:18] It’s just a matter of playing the longest game in the world, and how it’s always about more potential and growing in good ways, not because we’re never enough, but because we already know who we are.

[00:14:29] And along the way, knowing it’s a messy, curvaceous path to get to where we wanna be. Yeah.

[00:14:35] And when you know that, you make room for failures and mistakes.

[00:14:38] You come from a place of compassion instead of shame and you’re able to stay on the path to progress.

[00:14:45] Instead of, booting yourself off of that, of the first sign of a failure or a disappointment or burnout.

[00:14:52] You’re able to stay on the path.

[00:14:53] It’s a different kind of persistence.

[00:14:57] So important. Do you feel like for you and the way that you work with and coach other people habit, creating habits is part of this journey of letting go of perfectionism and establishing this- Yeah … other way of seeing yourself?

[00:15:15] Absolutely.

[00:15:15] And I would say that in two kind of directions.

[00:15:17] One is I never intended to get into habits.

[00:15:20] In the beginning I talked about identity work is what I did, but what I- how I did that was I, I still was stepping outside of self-help.

[00:15:28] Like, I wasn’t into personal development and growth.

[00:15:31] I was just trying to figure out who is Monica, period. Mm-hmm.

[00:15:34] Who, who am I anymore?

[00:15:35] And I kinda did my own journey of figuring that out, and it’s still ongoing now.

[00:15:38] It’s a spiral. It’s a cycle, you know?

[00:15:40] I’m revisiting things all the time, I’m learning new things, I’m uncovering new things, I’m exploring new things all the time about myself.

[00:15:46] For me that began with something called the do something list. Mm.

[00:15:48] It was a way for me to leave the all or nothing cycle and do something to explore who I am.

[00:15:55] Things that would never make the front page of a newspaper.

[00:15:57] You know? Like, go on five hikes because I used to love hiking, then I stopped hiking.

[00:16:01] Or read 20 new books. Same thing.

[00:16:03] Stopped reading even as an English major and English teacher.

[00:16:05] Go to a museum. I was almost a museum studies master’s person.

[00:16:09] I don’t even know how to say it. Graduate degree holder.

[00:16:12] And then didn’t go to museums for nearly a decade.

[00:16:14] So it was about bringing back these parts of myself, and also exploring other parts that I always thought, “I wish I could do that,” or, “I see so-and-so doing that.

[00:16:23] I wish I made time for that.

[00:16:25] I wish I knew how,” or, “I wish I could be good at that.”

[00:16:27] And doing that list now for nearly 10 years, that’s really what began to change my life truly is coming back home to who I am and uncovering that.

[00:16:36] And then along the way, knowing myself was a really good thing.

[00:16:40] And working on, this do something list helped me challenge the perfectionist in me because I was allowed to be messy.

[00:16:45] I was allowed to be bad at things.

[00:16:46] I was allowed to not like things. You know?

[00:16:49] It wasn’t for the outcome, and it’s never been about completion either.

[00:16:52] I’ve never completed a list in the 11 years of making one every year.

[00:16:56] It’s been all about exploration.

[00:16:58] So in challenging this inner perfectionist and getting to know who I am, it was beautiful and life-changing, but I hit a plateau.

[00:17:04] And for me that’s because my day-to-day life wasn’t reflecting who I knew myself to be and who I wanted to be.

[00:17:11] And it started simply as knowing that I needed to actually sleep for the first time in my entire life.

[00:17:16] I had to figure out how to sleep.

[00:17:18] I also had to figure out how to make space, to feed myself, to reflect through journaling, to move myself in a way that was healthy and good for my body, but not to the extremes of the ways that I had prior within my own eating disorder days. And that’s

[00:17:32] I mean, that’s a whole other story, but the nutshell is-

[00:17:37] The habit formation methods I was learning from were still pretty in that all or nothing, cycle and place.

[00:17:42] Oh, sure. I’m sure. And, yeah.

[00:17:44] They were in the beginning especially.

[00:17:45] Tried and failed, tried and failed, tried and failed.

[00:17:47] And, and that’s what then took me into many years of studying and learning and experimenting on habit formation for women specifically.

[00:17:54] Habit formation for women specifically.

[00:17:57] Yes.

[00:17:57] How that… So talk to me about that. What is habit formation for women? Like, is that- Mm-hmm.

[00:18:03] Well, you, you tell me.

[00:18:05] I think for, for me it was the failures actually that helped me see, huh, maybe there’s something more to this than me just failing habits. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:14] And that was more confirmed by the many women that I was coaching at that time.

[00:18:18] And I was coaching them on identity.

[00:18:20] I was identity coach purely at that time and helping them come back home to themselves and to learn how to make progress outside of perfectionism.

[00:18:26] And they similarly hit plateaus, and they needed to sleep.

[00:18:31] They wanted to eat better.

[00:18:32] They wanted to make space for their own hobbies or rest, for goodness sakes.

[00:18:36] They wanted- Yes … life to be more than just to-dos.

[00:18:39] But, I had been trained at that point.

[00:18:41] I took a, you know, I was in a very intensive coaching training program now called Heroic.

[00:18:45] And they have a whole subset of the training on habits specifically.

[00:18:49] So I learned a great deal about habit formation and behavior design.

[00:18:53] And I was installing that with my clients, and they also kept failing.

[00:18:56] And that’s when I realized this isn’t just me.

[00:18:59] This is an us problem.

[00:19:00] And I was coaching women across the spectrum of mother, not mo- mom, stay-at, stay-at-home working mom, retired, like single, like everything in between, and yet they all kept failing.

[00:19:10] And that was when I had a, a eureka moment.

[00:19:12] I was kind of slow.

[00:19:13] It took, it took a lot of, like, people hitting me over the head to realize the people we’re learning from, the methods that we’re installing, they’re all written and designed by men.

[00:19:22] And that doesn’t mean we throw that out the window or that we get our pitchforks and then we’re gonna go and riot them or, like, hate them.

[00:19:30] It’s not that.

[00:19:30] It’s just that they are missing that our lives are different from their lives, and that largely comes down to one big, big factor.

[00:19:38] I mean, hormones alone we could talk about.

[00:19:40] We could get a medical doctor on here and talk about that for probably, like, six hours, you know?

[00:19:44] But there’s a defining reason that unifies all women regardless of where they are with menstruating or not, childcare or not, working or not, and it’s invisible labor.

[00:19:55] And invisible labor is the mental, physical, emotional labor required to run institutions from the household up to your local church, school, and even work spaces.

[00:20:07] Like, who plans your work parties?

[00:20:09] It’s largely on- Yeah … women’s shoulders.

[00:20:11] And this work is largely unseen, undervalued, and underpaid or unpaid.

[00:20:17] And it’s work that really, really, really matters.

[00:20:21] We need to do a better job of seeing it and valuing it and working on the disparity of it.

[00:20:26] But because women are the predominant carriers of invisible labor, it shows…

[00:20:30] and this is research-backed by decades’ worth of research.

[00:20:33] This isn’t just me saying, “Oh, this work…”

[00:20:35] Like, anecdotally for me a month ago, this is the case, so it’s true for all of us.

[00:20:39] No, this is research-backed.

[00:20:40] The UN has incredible research on this especially.

[00:20:43] But women literally, truly, research-backed, have less time than all men on average.

[00:20:49] In America, we spend double the amount of time on home work, like home and care work, not- Sure

[00:20:55] even if you have kids or not, than our male counterparts.

[00:20:58] In India, that number is six to one.

[00:21:00] So we have- Wow … less time.

[00:21:02] We are doing more with that time, and we also have less energy because of that.

[00:21:07] And another word for energy, by the way, is willpower.

[00:21:10] Discipline, motivation. It’s all about energy.

[00:21:14] We have far more interruptions, and we have far less predictability and support.

[00:21:19] And speaking of the water that we’re swimming in, so much of invisible labor, since it is unseen, ’cause two-thirds of the work is internal.

[00:21:28] Because so much of it’s unseen and undervalued, we don’t even know as women how much this impacts our day-to-day life because we’ve just been living it for so long.

[00:21:39] But if you’re to piecemeal it out, I mean it’s… The research on it is undeniable.

[00:21:43] Our lives are different from men’s lives.

[00:21:45] And the expectations that are passed down just through osmosis from your mother, from your grandmother- Yes … et cetera.

[00:21:53] It’s generational, right? It seems to- Yeah

[00:21:56] be passed along like this is just who you… not just what you do, but who you are.

[00:22:00] Yeah. And, and again, it’s one of those things that doesn’t have to be explicitly taught for us to learn it and to understand it.

[00:22:07] When you say it’s more internal, can you dig into- Mm-hmm … that a little bit more?

[00:22:12] Yes. There’s a lot of research on this, but a book that I would love to point people to is Fair Play by Eve Rodsky.

[00:22:17] She is an amazing corporate lawyer who turned her business expertise to the business of running the home.

[00:22:24] The most important corporation on Earth is how she calls it.

[00:22:28] Mm-hmm. And there’s three parts of any task you do.

[00:22:30] There’s conceiving of the task, knowing what needs to be done, like even knowing, oh, that toilet paper needs to be replaced on the toilet paper holder.

[00:22:38] Planning it out, knowing how that needs to be done.

[00:22:40] Well, we store the toilet paper here and when it’s empty, so and so takes it down and puts it on.

[00:22:45] And then there’s executing, which is the actual doing.

[00:22:48] And a lot of women are lucky enough to have very supportive partners in their lives, male, male partners.

[00:22:53] I’m one of them.

[00:22:54] But if you are still in the position of directing the work, you are carrying two-thirds of the tasks that you are even directing.

[00:23:00] And it’s really hard to quantify the hours that takes, but the research shows that 70% of the task is internal.

[00:23:09] Interesting. That is really, that’s fascinating.

[00:23:11] So even this idea of the honey-do list, my brother-in-law loves calling it the honey-do list. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah.

[00:23:18] Just making the list is 70% of- Yes

[00:23:21] the labor.

[00:23:22] So my sister making the list- Yes … is

[00:23:26] And, and I know it seems hard because you’re like, “Really?”.

[00:23:29] But yes, it does. I mean, if you just even think about- Oh, I totally understand … how much you carry around, like internally of, of marking who needs to do what and where and by, and who needs to be where by whom.

[00:23:39] And it’s, it’s an inexhaustible list.

[00:23:41] It never ends.

[00:23:43] But if we’re going back to habit formation and why these methods don’t work, I mean, it’s largely because they’re written and designed by men.

[00:23:48] The research on them is largely on men. Mm-hmm.

[00:23:51] There’s another book called Invisible Women, which is really eye-opening about anything research world, like in terms of product design even city design about where they decide to put buses and the routes they take.

[00:24:03] They design them based off of men even though women are their primary users of buses.

[00:24:07] Even down to your iPhone is designed for a male hand and a male voice.

[00:24:11] The heart disease medication you take, not researched on women even though women are the number one heart disease patients in the world.

[00:24:18] So it, it’s inexhaustible there too.

[00:24:20] But this was done in good faith, I would say, by these men.

[00:24:23] It’s not that they’re trying to eliminate us from having good habits, it’s that, it’s done in ignorance.

[00:24:29] They believe that what works for them and the people that they work with, which again are predominantly men is gender neutral in application, and it can’t be because these methods are designed on a certain level of energy and predictability, which are both things we’ve already talked about we have less of.

[00:24:46] So it’s not that we are less and that we need to just like dumb things down for us, it’s that our lives are different.

[00:24:52] And until bigger systemic change happens, even just starting in our home in terms of how like the labor is being divided and actually valued and seen and all that we don’t, we can’t wait.

[00:25:03] We can’t afford to wait.

[00:25:04] We need to figure out how to work within the systems we’re in now and gradually work on changing the systems, but we need support here and now.

[00:25:11] We don’t have the luxury to wait.

[00:25:14] So how within this does it, when you talk about habit formation- Mm-hmm … for women, how does that then start?

[00:25:23] How do you step outside this, this context- Mm-hmm … and start to begin to work within a new role?

[00:25:30] Yes. So everything I teach is both deep and practical.

[00:25:34] We have to go deep first, and then we actually have to apply things in a practical, everyday kind of sense.

[00:25:40] So with this, we start internally by redefining what habits are, what their purpose is.

[00:25:46] A lot of us see habits as prisons.

[00:25:49] These maximum prescriptions that we are bound by, that we have to live behind.

[00:25:52] They’re very strong and hard to move and there’s no wiggle room.

[00:25:56] This is the way it is.

[00:25:58] But habits are supportive.

[00:26:00] That is what their true purpose is.

[00:26:02] Their job is to support us.

[00:26:04] They work for us. Sure.

[00:26:05] We don’t work for them.

[00:26:07] And to do that as women, we move from a very rigid way of looking at habits and designing them to a flexible way.

[00:26:16] We are designing them to support us for our time and season. So the way that we exercise doesn’t have to be the same until we’re 85, you know?

[00:26:27] If we’re fortunate.

[00:26:28] Right. It’s allowed to change.

[00:26:30] It’s allowed to change seasonally, and I mean that literally and figuratively.

[00:26:33] It’s also allowed to change according to our preferences or what we’re going, what’s going on in our life and our circumstances and our health.

[00:26:39] Like, things are allowed to be flexible that way.

[00:26:42] And then as part of that we look at consistency differently too.

[00:26:47] A lot of how habits are taught, they’re like, you know decide what your habit is and then start on a day, often Monday. You know? Yeah.

[00:26:54] Start Monday. We all know about Monday, don’t we?

[00:26:57] Yeah, we all know about Monday. We all know about January 1st.

[00:27:00] Okay? Start on January 1st and if you’re lucky it’s a Monday too.

[00:27:04] And then keep that habit for 21, 28 or 30 days. Mm-hmm.

[00:27:07] Those are the most common numbers we get.

[00:27:09] And then you have a habit. Well, that, that’s a consistent and it’s important that we have consistency.

[00:27:14] Habits still do live and die by consistency.

[00:27:17] But with that model there is no nuance.

[00:27:20] There’s no life happening.

[00:27:22] There’s no flexibility.

[00:27:23] If you get to 20 of 21 or 28 days and, you know, for some women their period starts or a kid gets sick or a big work project is due or, there’s a hormone swing for them so they’re having a harder time, like, having the energy.

[00:27:37] And for whatever reason they can’t do the habit in the same way as they’ve done it the other 19 days-

[00:27:43] Then they failed.

[00:27:44] They’ve not just failed the habit for that day, they failed it in getting the habit.

[00:27:48] So instead, we can start by redefining consistency.

[00:27:51] Consistency is doing your best most of the time over time.

[00:27:56] Consistency…

[00:27:58] i’m gonna actually break those down and then I’ll come back to the thought I just had.

[00:28:00] But one, doing your best is your true best, not perfection.

[00:28:04] It’s like a different way of coming back home to yourself and really recognizing the truth in yourself of what is my best today or for this season?

[00:28:13] It actually is this, okay?

[00:28:15] So doing your best most of the time.

[00:28:18] It’s not about perfection, like you have to hit every single day perfectly the rest of your life.

[00:28:24] It’s most of the time.

[00:28:25] Your target is more times than not you’re doing this habit.

[00:28:28] And if you have that, then you have a habit. And thirdly, over time.

[00:28:33] You’re playing the long game here because you’re playing the sustainability game.

[00:28:36] A lot of us have finished health challenges or habit challenges where we get to that 21, 28 or 30 days, and it’s so great, but was it sustainable?

[00:28:46] And if not, then that means it’s a failure.

[00:28:49] But it’s not a failure on the woman, it’s a failure on the method.

[00:28:54] So what we do instead is we’re playing a longer game, and we’re also playing a more flexible one.

[00:28:58] We design habits in ways that actually work for us, and instead of only having one version of the habit that we have to keep, we have flexible versions too, and I call those the baselines.

[00:29:09] Baselines are the smaller and simpler versions of our ideals that we can do on less than ideal days.

[00:29:15] So maybe movement, your ideal is you’re gonna go for a 60-minute walk a day, okay? And because maybe you already walk that’s okay.

[00:29:23] 60 minutes seems like I can do that reasonably during my time.

[00:29:26] But you also need a more flexible version of that.

[00:29:28] And this is where habits are nets, not prisons, right?

[00:29:31] One that is bendy and there to catch you but movable, right?

[00:29:36] Able to move with you.

[00:29:37] So maybe for this woman maybe since she already walks 30 minutes is a practical baseline.

[00:29:43] For a woman who doesn’t move at all and she wants to install a 60-minute walking habit, her baseline was gonna be different.

[00:29:48] It’s probably gonna be like a five-minute walk or a walk around the block.

[00:29:52] And it needs to be that simple because then you’re able to maintain the consistency factor.

[00:29:59] And this is a big shift.

[00:30:00] You know, flexibility and consistency are not competing ideals or complementary.

[00:30:05] Flexibility makes consistency possible.

[00:30:08] So if we design our habits to be flexible day to day, season to season, and we also have, a better understanding of what they’re for, and we’ve, and prescribe them for ourselves in ways that actually work for us, then we’re able to have the consistency we need to have this habit.

[00:30:26] Amazing. Yes, absolutely.

[00:30:29] I love that idea that flexibility and consistency are friends- Yes … and not Love how you said that.

[00:30:37] They are friends.

[00:30:38] They’re not duking it out.

[00:30:40] Yeah, they help each other. I have had a burning question since I- Yes … first talked to you.

[00:30:46] How have you managed all of this with raising five children? You know, I, I do think it’s true for any mom that I don’t think there’s a number that makes things harder or easier.

[00:31:01] I think if you’re a mom, period, of one or 10, like it’s, it’s hard no matter what.

[00:31:06] And it’s invasive and consuming.

[00:31:09] But for me, it’s really been a lot of I’ve had to practice what I preach.

[00:31:13] I was wondering if your children have helped you learn the word flexibility, and- Yes … do you know what I mean?

[00:31:19] And- Absolutely … and different- It- … changed your idea of what, good enough is.

[00:31:24] Absolutely. They’ve, they’ve done that, and I think all, like, open-hearted parents are gonna experience that too.

[00:31:31] I mean, to be the good parent that I wanna be, who’s present and who isn’t, you know, a drill sergeant with my kids, I’ve had to learn how to be flexible with them, but also with myself.

[00:31:42] Yeah, that’s a big part of it.

[00:31:44] And it all comes back to, for me, is in order for me to be the mom I wanna be, I need to know who I am.

[00:31:49] I need to feel like myself.

[00:31:51] And so the identity work has been really important, but feeling like myself is the habit stuff.

[00:31:56] And in order to do that in the mayhem that we have with five kids, and many of whom have special needs, is I’ve had to learn to be flexible so that I can have the support I need from my habits.

[00:32:07] I need certain things in order to feel like myself day to day.

[00:32:10] I need those habits to be myself so that I can be the kind of mom I wanna be too.

[00:32:16] It’s invisible labor, because that’s a very important point, and I would imagine the mother of five children, the invisible labor would be astronomical, right?

[00:32:24] Mm-hmm.

[00:32:24] The amount of planning and the amount of being mindful of where, which kid is… ‘Cause your kids are ages 3 to 15, which is- Yeah … Yeah … my m- I, mind can’t just even wrap around that. That’s am- and so kudos to you.

[00:32:40] But has that helped you define more what your labor is, and what other, like, to create boundaries basically around that and finding, and also designating for them what their role in that plays, right?

[00:32:58] Because- Yes.

[00:33:00] Yes, and that’s actually a big part of it.

[00:33:01] We talked about how so much of this is systemic, and that’s even the systems in your home. Right.

[00:33:06] And that’s obviously where I think we have, one, the most power and the most control, more than we think.

[00:33:12] Because the bigger systems are just gonna take so much more time, and a, more of a collective effort.

[00:33:16] And so going back to the home, yeah, with my kids, that’s been the only way I’ve been able to be myself is for them to learn how to notice things around the home, and take accountability for their things, and do them too, starting at a younger age.

[00:33:30] And mostly, you know, also because I was a stay-at-home mom for many years, but I’ve also worked part-time for the last 10.

[00:33:35] Starting at their nap time and bedtime but more so now.

[00:33:38] Like, my, right now you probably heard my 13-year-old is watching my three-year-old while I do this interview and is getting paid for it.

[00:33:43] ‘Cause I want them to value, like, I want them to know this childcare is, like, valued and I’m gonna… I will pay for time that people- Yeah

[00:33:50] you know, take care of it.

[00:33:51] But yeah, that’s been a bigger pursuit.

[00:33:53] Because for many years- of our marriage until quite recently, my husband worked really long hours.

[00:33:59] We lived in the San Francisco Bay Area.

[00:34:00] He was gone so much that my oldest daughter called him by his first name for years- Oh, wow … ’cause we saw him so little.

[00:34:07] So circumstantially that those were tough times because there was no one else, and my kids were far too little for them to do their own laundry, for instance.

[00:34:16] My kids almost all do their own laundry now, minus the three-year-old, and the eight-year-old’s still kinda learning.

[00:34:20] But there wasn’t that option.

[00:34:23] But there is more so now.

[00:34:24] So a lot of it is, like, my kids getting older.

[00:34:26] My husband now works remotely from home, which has changed my life to just even hand him the baby monitor when I need to go pick up another kid, to not have to pick, wake that kid up to go get another kid changed my life.

[00:34:37] But also it’s been within our marriage, too, of, you know, if you want your husband to be more of a partner who’s noticing things and contributing, just start learning and teaching about invisible labor.

[00:34:48] ‘Cause he’s like- I’ve gotten so upset- … by osmosis- … during COVID … learned this. I have, too.

[00:34:52] It’s been great. Well, he’s a great guy, you know.

[00:34:53] , He learns it. He, himself, and we talk about it more, and gradually he’s taken on more and more in our home, too, and our kids have as well.

[00:35:01] I want my kids to be… I want them to be adults, not kids raised or a kid housed in a- an adult body.

[00:35:07] But I remember, I mean, I graduated from high school.

[00:35:10] I was the fifth of seven kids, like I said, and my mom was a stay-at-home mom and was an amazing mom, and is, still is.

[00:35:16] I had no clue how to do laundry.

[00:35:19] The first time I had to go to do laundry in the basement of my dorm, no clue how to do it. Wow. Not any idea.

[00:35:25] And I didn’t have Google then, either.

[00:35:26] So it was just like winging it.

[00:35:28] Same thing with feeding myself.

[00:35:29] I lived off of quarter apples. Like, I didn’t even know you could have a whole apple.

[00:35:34] I just cut up a quarter each day to last me for, like, four or five days, for, as part of my lunch with a grilled cheese.

[00:35:40] And it’s not a knock on my mom at all.

[00:35:41] She was an amazing mom.

[00:35:43] But in some ways it feels easier to just do it yourself, you know?

[00:35:46] You’re already in your own system, and you’re swimming in that water, and you’re just doing what you do.

[00:35:50] And my husband’s actually been the one to be like, “So-and-so can do that now.”

[00:35:53] I’m like, “Oh, you’re right. Oh, they can do their own laundry, or they can put on their own clothes, or, or they can pack their own lunches.” And you know.

[00:36:01] Now we’re gonna try to have them start learning how to make dinner.

[00:36:04] But that’s, that is one that feels too easy for me to do right now.

[00:36:07] I’d just rather do it myself, but we gotta start doing that, too.

[00:36:11] Mm-hmm. Yeah. I can see that. I, I think that this has been such a great conversation.

[00:36:17] If somebody is starting, like in my- Mm-hmm … community, who is hearing you, and I know you have a book, and I want you to tell us all about your book coming out, and it’s on pre-order, so we can get it today.

[00:36:27] Sure.

[00:36:28] But- If somebody was struggling with this, like if they were stuck in this world where you- Yeah … you’re talking about in this world of perfectionism and- Mm-hmm … um, what would be step one? Just- Mm-hmm … the first baby step.

[00:36:43] I think it’s I’ve been talking about this so much, but forgive me, but I’m going back to the water analogy.

[00:36:48] It’s you’ve got to see what the water is that you’re swimming in. Mm.

[00:36:51] And with perfectionism, it’s so hard to have the courage to walk away from perfectionism because it’s so idealized.

[00:37:00] I would even say idolized, by our culture.

[00:37:04] And so much of the self-help wellness industry is certainty sells, I think even more than sex does.

[00:37:11] And it’s really something that we are drawn to as consumers.

[00:37:14] We want the certain outcomes.

[00:37:16] But what I want to encourage them to do is to ask themselves if it’s really working, and to what cost.

[00:37:23] If the cost is your mental health, your relationships, your physical health, it’s not a, a cost worth paying.

[00:37:28] If your cost is your consistency, I mean, a lot of us, you know, our perfection costs us our consistency, our sustainability, then it’s also not working.

[00:37:36] I would get really honest with yourself about your own history with this pendulum swing and ask yourself if maybe there is another way, one that requires some more courage to believe that there’s actually a lot more nuance and gray and messiness to making progress, but also one that I can guarantee you will create more and lasting progress over time.

[00:38:00] Absolutely. Wonderfully said.

[00:38:03] You know, and just going on that idea of the male-driven society and, you know, I’m in Hollywood. I’m- Yes … am ar- surrounded by the film industry.

[00:38:13] Mm-hmm. And, uh, my husband was telling me, we went to see the one with Ryan Gosling that was out this summer. Oh. I’m gonna forgot the name already.

[00:38:21] The, um, uh, the- Well, I, h- Project Hail Mary … Hail Mary. Yes. Right. So good.

[00:38:25] And my husband was like, “You know what that film was? It was competency porn.”

[00:38:31] And, and that’s a term- Yeah … that Hollywood uses is that people love- Mm-hmm … watching people rise to the occasion and be competent.

[00:38:43] Yeah. And, it is an actual term used all the time.

[00:38:47] Mm. And actually, films are based on people elevating their competency within a film.

[00:38:53] Like Ryan Gosling, he had to do all these, like, things that were s- uh, you know, I, I sat in that film and I loved it. It was very entertaining.

[00:39:00] And I said, “That was so ridiculous all the things he did in or…”

[00:39:03] You know, like, that were so- Yes … I call it ridonkulous.

[00:39:06] I was like, “That’s ridonkulous.”

[00:39:09] But we are immersed in this culture which prizes competency- Mm-hmm … and being, you know, and winning, and being great at that.

[00:39:18] And so it is, it’s, it really having to break that mold is like you said, it’s all about being courageous.

[00:39:27] And- Yeah … and that becomes why- it’s having the courage, I think.

[00:39:29] I think honestly more than anything it’s having…

[00:39:31] and I had this client who was scared, a clien- long ago.

[00:39:35] And I have a terrible memory. Most things go in and out.

[00:39:37] I love to learn fortunately, but it takes me many times to learn something for it to stick.

[00:39:41] She said something that has stuck with me. I’ve never forgotten it word for word.

[00:39:44] And she was similarly scared, as most of your listeners I should- I’m sure would be, about having the courage to leave that all or nothing pendulum swing, of believing in the lie of perfectionism.

[00:39:57] And she chose to try anyway, and several months into coaching she was growing and she was changing.

[00:40:03] That’s nice. And it felt miraculous to her.

[00:40:04] But I asked her, “What did you learn?”

[00:40:08] And she said, “I learned it takes the greatest of courage to do the smallest of things.”

[00:40:14] That’s what I want us all to take on, is to believe that the small, messy, even mediocre ways that we are compassionately working towards our outcome, that’s what gets us there.

[00:40:28] That’s really it. Yeah. Amazing.

[00:40:32] Well, that is a great note for me to let you talk about your book that is coming out.

[00:40:37] Oh, sure. And it sounds…

[00:40:39] please tell us. I could tell you the title, but I will botch it up, and I’ll just let you- No worries … pitch it.

[00:40:46] I, you know, it’s funny, I botch it up myself all the time.

[00:40:48] I’m always like- Okay … “What’s my subtitle?”

[00:40:50] Because we went through so many rounds of that subtitle that I mix it up, but I’ll give it my best shot here.

[00:40:55] Okay. You don’t have to- The book is called Sticky Habits.

[00:40:57] Yes. That’s the nice thing, after this conversation.

[00:40:59] Sticky Habits, and the subtitle is A Woman’s Guide to Reclaim Happiness, Ditch Perfectionism, and Create Habits That Last.

[00:41:07] This book is, in many ways, a, a method, a habit method, but it’s also an unlearning of why we do habits differently as women.

[00:41:15] And also, it’s a coming back home to who we are as women.

[00:41:19] It’s about learning that we deserve to have our lives look and feel like our own, from the way we see ourselves to our habits, and how to do that.

[00:41:27] It’s ready right now for pre-orders.

[00:41:29] They can go to stickyhabitsbook.com.

[00:41:31] I’ve got three fantastic pre-order bonuses that are worth several hundred dollars for every person who pre-orders by September 8th, and that’s when the book gets released.

[00:41:40] So I invite them to go check it out at stickyhabitsbook.com, and then they can also come and check out my podcast.

[00:41:45] It’s About Progress. I’ve been doing it now for nearly 10 years and over 800 episodes, and I would love to have them come and listen.

[00:41:51] Wherever they’re already listening, just go search for About Progress.

[00:41:54] Amazing. Well, it was, it’s so nice to get to know you, Monica, and thank you so much for opening our eyes to…

[00:42:02] I love the a lot of what you spoke about today, perfectionism and invisible labor. That- Mm-hmm … that was a big one for me.

[00:42:10] And, Great … flexibility and consistency.

[00:42:15] Loving on each other.

[00:42:16] Yes, well then you would definitely love the book, ’cause that’s where there’s, like, several a lot more where that came from.

[00:42:23] Okay. Well, great.

[00:42:24] Well, go, go everybody and check it out, and stickyhabits.com.

[00:42:28] Is that correct? Stickyhabitsbook.com. Oh, sticky habits

[00:42:32] book.

[00:42:32] Unfortunately, sticky habits would’ve cost me, like, 10 grand to buy the domain. Okay.

[00:42:35] So we went with stickyhabitsbook.com. I love it. Okay. Terrific.

[00:42:39] And thank you so much for being on the Thin Thinking podcast. We’ll have to have you back- My joy … and talk about perfectionism more or less. Oh, I’d love to.

[00:42:46] I’d love to. Any, anytime, I’m down. Okay. I’d love to. Thank you so much.

[00:42:51] Thank you, Monica, for being on the Thin Thinking podcast.

[00:42:54] That was really amazing.

[00:42:57] And remember, Monica’s book, Sticky Habits, you can grab it directly through www.stickyhabitsbook.com.

[00:43:06] Go pre-order, or if this is past the September of 2026, go get it directly.

[00:43:12] And remember that the key, and probably the only key, to unlocking the door of the weight struggle is inside you, so keep listening and find it, and I will be back with you here next week.

[00:43:25] See you then. Stay healthy.

[00:43:28] Do you wanna dive deeper into the mindset of long-term weight release?

[00:43:32] Head on over to www.shiftweightmastery.com.

[00:43:38] That’s www.shiftweightmastery.com, where you will find numerous tools and resources to help you unlock your mind for permanent weight release, tips, strategies, and more.

[00:43:51] And be sure to check the show notes to learn more about my book, From Fat to Thin Thinking: Unlock Your Mind for Permanent Weight Loss.